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What is the underlying basis for the Jewish claim on most of Israel territory? |
Travel Info Here is an honest question- and please don't lable me an anti semite for asking it- But what is the original basis for the Jewish claim on Israel and surrounding areas? As I understand it, much of that are was occupied by the British, they encourage many of the European Jews at the end of WW2 to move there- The Brits tried to artificially divide the land into a Jewish state and a Palastinian state. The Jewish state was created- but no cohesive Palastinian state was formed- wheich is one reason for much of the tension. Many Jews assert the land there was given to Jews 'by God'. So does the Jewish claim on that land have more to do with the original British mandate-or God's mandate? If a Palastinian state were created, wouldnt that bring an end to much of the strife? Of course with many in the middle east threatening to destroy Israel- there will never be peace. If the Jews argue they have a right to the land over the Palastinians because 'God said so', it's a very shaky claim. Travel Tips Leaving religion aside, the claim of the Jews on the land is mostly historical and cultural. The Zionist movement was founded at the mid 19th century. The movement arose correspondingly to the revival of the romantic nationalism of the European nations, and the persecutions of the Jews in Europe ("May Laws", Dreyfus affair鈥?. There has always been a Jewish settlement in Israel, but the first big immigration waves came at the 80's of the 19th century from East Europe and Yemen. The next Aliyah waves (Jewish immigration to Israel) took place in 1903-1914 (Second Aliyah), 1919-1923 (Third Aliyah), 1924-1928 (Fourth Aliyah), 1931-1939 (Fifth Aliyah), where 475,000 Jews from all over Europe and the Middle East came to Israel to build and live in the Jewish state. As you see, we are much more active and ahead of our time than most people give us credit for- no one "encouraged" Jews to settle Israel (especially not the Brits, who came 40 years after the first Aliyahs), and the Holocaust (that came 60 years after the first Aliyahs) had a very little to do with the creation of the state. As opposed to the common belief in the Arab world, the Jewish settlement in Israel is not a new form of colonialism, and Israel does not exist only because of the Holocaust. In November 29th 1947, the UN voted in favor the Partition Plan, a formal declaration of the establishment of two separate states on the land: a Jewish state and an Arab state. On the very same night, 7 Arab armies declared war on the Jewish settlement in response to the voting and thus breached the plan (Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Arab Liberation Army and the Palestinian Arabs). The Jewish settlement (that during the war declared independence) won the war. Since then, several attempts to create an Arab state and sign peace have been failed and breached (guess by who). We don't claim to own the land. No land belongs to any one. Our affinity to the land is derived from our history on it; the Jewish culture, religion and tradition were formed in Israel, and this is the place were we want to live (the Zionist Movement's attempts to create a Jewish state in Uganda and Argentina fell for this matter). What claim on the land do the Arabs have? They occupied the land just like any other nation before and after them. In fact, the land was ruled by Arabs only twice: the Arab Caliphate (638-1099 CE) and the Mamluk period (1244-1517 CE). They had loads of empires before them and after them. (the Jews, if you were wondering, ruled it for a much longer period of time: from the ancient times, through the kingdoms of Judah and Israel, the Hasmoneans etc). I am all for the idea of two states and a true peace, but seeing the whole picture and getting to know history is a very important step towards is. Others The claim is based on the fact that Jews have lived in the area continuously for several thousand years. The various Hebrew tribes migrated to the area and conquered it much as is described in the Bible. The Jews remained in varying numbers over the millennia since then under the rule of a variety of foreign powers from the Greeks and Romans to the Ottoman Turks and the English. The issue is not one of "giving" the land to the Jews but simply a question of whether the Jews who already owned the land would be able to have the right to self-determination. The boundries of the Jewish state created by the United Nations were determined by examining who lived where and allowing areas with a majority Jewish populationj to constitute themselves a self governing state. But the Arabs refused to accept this and, in defiance of international law. declared war on the newly formed Israel. Arabs armies numbering in the tens of thousand with professionally trained, professionally led, and professionally armed troops then attacked the Jews throwing tanks and fighter planes against civilians, including women and children, armed with makeshift weapons and no training. The unanimous opinion of professionals everywhere was that the Jewish state would be obliterated in days. Naturally, the Jews won. The mighty armies of the Arabs were beaten like dogs by a handful of Jews, many of them women and children. In the subsequent Arab attempts to destroy Israel they Arabs lost more and more land. That land belongs to the Israelis by the right of conquest. To answer your question, I'll make it real short. :) A) The Israelis and Jews use the Bible as a Convenient excuse to claim all of the Occupied territories as being " a part of Israel". (Not that the Bible supports what they say since the Land does not belong Only to the Jews....Read my post below). B) The conflict is really about Israel wanting more and more land. C) If a Palestinian state were created, it would solve a lot, if not most of the problems there. Ofcourse, Israel doesn't want this to happen so its unlikely the conflict will end anytime soon. LMAO. Typical Zionist PROPAGANDA from Rillifane. LOL :) I'll debunk his claims one by one. ;) " The claim is based on the fact that Jews have lived in the area continuously for several thousand years. " --Actually a VERY small minority of Jews lived in the area while the inhabitants were either Arab, Christian or Muslim. Also, the Arabs, Arab Christians and Muslims are the ones that have been in that area for many Thousands of Years! " The Jews remained in varying numbers over the millennia since then under the rule of a variety of foreign powers from the Greeks and Romans to the Ottoman Turks and the English. " ---Read my above comment. " The issue is not one of "giving" the land to the Jews but simply a question of whether the Jews who already owned the land would be able to have the right to self-determination. " ---What a bunch of Garbage. All of that land belonged to the Arabs, Muslims and Arab Christians who have always been there since way before Jesus. You need to read some history boy. The Jews were late arrivals and were a very tiny group. The Jewish claim to that land is Only based on what the Bible supposedly says. Why do I say this??? Because God promised the land to ALL Christians, Muslims and Jews. NOT Only to Jews. Read this: " The Promised Land: According to the Bible the land was promised by God as an everlasting possession to the descendants of patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: Abraham "On that day, God made a covenant with Abraham, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river the Euphrates. The land of the Kenites, Kenizites, Kadmonites; the Chitties, Perizites, Refaim; the Emorites, Canaanites, Gigashites and Yevusites." (Genesis 15:18-21) Isaac "To you and your descendants I give this land." (Genesis 26:3) " The DECENDANTS of Abraham Include all Muslims, Christians and Jews. So, if anything, the land belongs to Christians, Muslims and Jews. All 3 of them. " The boundries of the Jewish state created by the United Nations were determined by examining who lived where and allowing areas with a majority Jewish populationj to constitute themselves a self governing state. " -----The boundaries of the "Jewish" state were created on Palestinian Land (the people of the area). So it was taking other peoples land and giving it to the Jews. " But the Arabs refused to accept this and, in defiance of international law. declared war on the newly formed Israel. " ----Ofcourse. The UN was taking someone elses land and giving it to another people. The Jews took Palestinian land and declared the establishment of Israel on top of it. " Arabs armies numbering in the tens of thousand with professionally trained, professionally led, and professionally armed troops then attacked the Jews throwing tanks and fighter planes against civilians, including women and children, armed with makeshift weapons and no training. " -----Lmao. What garbage. You're real good at Propaganda. Lol. The Arab "armies" were Very POORLY trained, very POORLY Equipped, and their Real Numbers were small. Where as the Israeli troops were equipped with the Most Modern, Most Technologically Advanced and Most State of the Art Weaponry available at that time. All of Israels weapons were American, British, French. From Israels Air Force, to Israels Army, it recieved the Best of the Best in Weaponry and Training from those 3 countries. It was the IDF, which was created from the Jewish terrorist group the Haganah that carried out massacres of Arab men, women and children. " The unanimous opinion of professionals everywhere was that the Jewish state would be obliterated in days. " -----No such opinions existed. The Opinions were that the Arabs would be defeated in days and they were. " Naturally, the Jews won. The mighty armies of the Arabs were beaten like dogs by a handful of Jews, many of them women and children. " ----Yes the Jews won thanks to the USA, Britain and France. :) And there was Nothing "mighty" about the "armies" of the Arabs. Read my previous post on this matter. And you call Arabs dogs??? And claim they were beaten by women and children???? Lol. Such language is to be Expected from you and your ilk. :) " In the subsequent Arab attempts to destroy Israel they Arabs lost more and more land. That land belongs to the Israelis by the right of conquest. " ------1 War was started by the Arabs and 2 by Israel. By the way, Israel has Always launched Wars against its neighbors. The last one was Israels destruction of Lebanon in 2006. Also, do people know that Israel has Attacked and Destroyed the Lebanon 10 Times already???? Its been one Israeli war of Death and Destruction on that country (Lebanon) after another. By the way, the land that Israel captured does Not belong to Israel. The entire world condemns Israels ILLEGAL Occupation of it. The only country that thinks the land belongs to Israel, is, Israel itself. The claim that the state of Israel has to its current property is the same as any other nation. To give you some background the area that currently makes up the state of Israel was owned by the British. who took it from the Ottoman empire. who took it from some one else. Here is a short list of groups that have owned Israel in the last 3,000 years. Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Sassanian, Hashmonim, Ottoman, British. As you see the land has transfered many times. As such when the last owners transfered the land it owned to the new state of Israel it became just like the other dozen groups that controlled the area before it. Jews gave up their weak claim to Israel in 70 AD when the Romans kicked them out. There were few if any jews in PALESTINE from then until 1935 or so. Jews have NO claim on Palestine There are some Jews who claim the land was G-d given, particularly the very religious and those who live in the West Bank (Judea and Sumaria.) However, an overwhelming majority of Israelis and other Jews would say the claim is not because of a divine gift but the political and military process. I won't recount all the history, but discussions for Israel started at the end of the 1800s and into the very early 1900s. Other places other than Palestine were discussed, but eventually Jerusalem and the surrounding areas were the most popular choice because of the Jewish history there. The British gave land through the mandate after WWI and then allowed many immigrants to come after WWII. After failed negotiations no Palestinian state was created. And then after wars Palestinians lost land that had initially been in their control. I think while some do still claim the land for religious reason, most argue the land is rightfully Israeli because of the mandate, then Palestinian refusals for negotiations, or land acquired by war. To start the debate from religious and historical point of view we all by logic say that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL BY GOD Palestinians are Christians and Muslims the HOLY LAND IS FOR ALL GOD PEOPLE JEWS [sph +shik} AND PALESTINIAN CHRISTIAN AND MUSLIMS. So to call the holy land a Jewish land or a Muslim or Christian is baseless its God land for all. fact 2. Is the UN created both Palestine and Israel in the same resolution 181. The old holy land is not like the Americas where settlers uprooted the natives by wars and put them to live on reservation. Israeli VS Palestine is on going conflict where the Palestinian never gave up there clam to the land and most live in Palestine. There are many UN resolution that call clearly for a Palestinian state. Today the issue is Israel VS the world where Israel want to keep occupying land that was never part of Israel and there is no single nation that support the Israeli occupation of that land. The Israeli lobby in Washington policy is made to support the Israeli occupation policy by all means and any country in the middle east is seen as treat to the Israeli occupation policy must be taken by force like we saw in Iraq and now we have the Iran and Syria war next. The Israeli lobby new Middle east policy is wars and civil wars every where so can the world forget about occupation. The role of Israelis and Palestinians who want to live in peace is to stop that madness policy of wars and killings of both poor Israelis and poor Palestinians they both need our help to have a peaceful middle East. |
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